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The Dalai Lama Discusses Science and Spirituality with Larry King and Deepak Chopra

Aired June 26, 2000 - 9:00 p.m. ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE
UPDATED.

LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, an exclusive interview with one of the world's great
spiritual leaders, His Holiness the Dalai Lama, Nobel peace prize laureate. Also
in Los Angeles, Deepak Chopra, best- selling author of "How to Know God." All
next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Deepak Chopra will join our conversation later in the evening. We'll spend the
hour and most of it with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, the exiled spiritual
leader of Tibetan Buddhists, who in 1989 received the Nobel prize. He is in
downtown Los Angeles. He's the author of a brilliant book called "The Art of
Happiness: A Handbook For Living."

Before we talk about that and many other things, we thank you for being with us,
your holiness, and we'd love your reaction to the announcement today by
President Clinton and Prime Minister Blair about the genome.

What do you think of the book of human life?

DALAI LAMA: About what?

KING: About the genome, the book of life, announced today.

DALAI LAMA: Please explain something about that. I do not know what is the
meaning.

KING: Well, they announced today that the discovery that they could put together
a book of life on every person, DNA, the genome, et cetera, the book of
everyone's genes in life.

DALAI LAMA: I still -- I am not very clear, you see, about that.

KING: You did not hear this today?

DALAI LAMA: No, no. This...

KING: What are your thoughts...

DALAI LAMA: I engaged teaching, my teaching today.

KING: OK, I understand you were busy.

DALAI LAMA: But what is the meaning, then? So, anyway, is it some kind of new
life or something?

KING: Yes. What are your thoughts about DNA in general?

DALAI LAMA: DNA -- of course, my knowledge is very, very limited, but it is
something I think that each individuals have some sort of sense of DNA, so this
may have some kind of common link, that's coming from a Buddhist viewpoint, but
otherwise I have no sort of much idea about that.

KING: Do you fear at all the possibility of the making of human life in a
laboratory?

DALAI LAMA: I feel -- that is, I think, rather difficult. Perhaps I think the --
with this sort of human body that some sort of, I think, the new instrument or
certain things. So, the life in some level, even I think emotion, little is
changed here and there, but then just you see, new sort of component and create
mind. I think it's very, very difficult. So, of course, relatively speaking,
maybe it's a possibility, but still I feel it's rather difficult. But even, you
see, the Earth, even, you see, I think from the Buddhist viewpoint, certainly --
I mean, today is our life.

Now, these are very, very sort of -- ancestors says, you see, that hundred --
model is a few millions years ago. You see, the evolution comes from a different
sort of basis, not like today's body. So therefore, it takes time, but through
some, I think, difference of evolution that, theoretically speaking, it is
possible.

KING: Do you respect science?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, very much.

KING: You don't fear it?

DALAI LAMA: I mean, obviously, science I consider -- you see, there's some kind
of method or approach to find reality. So, in the Buddhist practice also, it is
very, very crucial to investigate the reality.

So therefore, the -- I very much, you see, sort of -- I'm in love with science
and also, of course, admire as a result of my sort of meeting or conversation
with scientists like out of different fields, cosmology, and the neurobiology,
and then, you see, quantum theory, such as -- an example is physicist such as
the late David Bowen (ph) and also Von Weiziger (ph).

You see, I really admire, you see, these great scientists. So, you see, I always
-- I'm really keen to learn, especially quantum physics. But then, while I'm
getting some sort of explanation from these great scientists, great sort of
physicists, it seems I understand something but as soon as the lesson is
finished there's nothing left in my mind.

KING: Me too.

DALAI LAMA: So, I consider -- I see.

(LAUGHTER) KING: Same thing.

Do you think -- you write a book called "The Art of Happiness." Do you think you
can teach people to be happy?

DALAI LAMA: That's difficult to say. Of course, you see, the people -- among the
people, you see, there are so many different (UNINTELLIGIBLE) positions. But I
consider, you see, the -- through my own sort of training, you see, I have some
sort of experience.

So, out of my experience, you see, I want to share with some people. So, that's
my main motivation. Then certainly, one thing I believe, you see, we -- every
human being, you see, we have same potential to achieve more sort of peace of
mind. That I am quite sure. So, then method, there could be some different
methods.

KING: We will take a break and come back with more of His Holiness the Dalai
Lama, the exiled spiritual leader of Tibetan Buddhists. Later, Deepak Chopra
will join us. This is LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We are back with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, who writes and talks of
compassion and caring and sharing and community. Yet one could ask, why are you
not bitter, why are you not angry? You're not able to be among your own country
men. Why -- how do you not get angry?

DALAI LAMA: Of course, sometimes I got sort of irritations, little sorts of
irritations. That happens. But, you see, I always -- as a Buddhist practitioner,
I always try to minimize these things. So I think the -- comparatively, you see,
these -- by these sort of negative sort of emotions will not -- mustn't disturb
my peace of mind. That's -- I'm always trying.

KING: Do you train yourself to do that?

DALAI LAMA: Yes. You see, I see hear one -- if we have some kind of holistic
view, that sort of helps to widen our view, or our mind. So that's very helpful
to reduce feeling of disturbances or agitation.

Then, of course, when I face some sort of tragic situation or I receive some --
I mean, hear some tragic news, then usually -- of course that, what kind of
tragic. Is it tragic? Is it created by human being? Then here important thing is
make a distinction between the person and his or her action.

You see, as far as towards action is concerned, we have to oppose, and sometimes
we need to take counter measure. But as far as the person is concerned, just
like myself, person want happiness and (UNINTELLIGIBLE), and then also those
persons who are taking this sort of harmful activities, is actually, you see,
that person's mind dominated by (UNINTELLIGIBLE) emotion, a negative emotions.
So on that basis, you see, there's reason to feeling sympathy towards them. So
that's the helpful to reduce negative feeling towards people, towards human
beings.

KING: Yes, but very difficult, very difficult to do, to seperate?

DALAI LAMA: Oh, that's -- you see, you know, I don't think it's very -- not
easy, but not impossible. Certainly you see through training, time goes, you
see, we can practice that. Now, for example, one's own case, usually, you see,
we try to make distinction by ones own action and one's self. On that basis, you
know, when we say, apologize, my mistake. That is the basis of distinction. I
made mistake. I do not want that mistake. So they apologize, you see, happy. So,
therefore, on ones own case, make distinction. But then to other, usually, you
see, we don't bother to make distinction. I think that's a mistake.

KING: Why do you think there's so much interest in Buddhism and yoga all over
the West, all over the United States. It's not just Hollywood, but it's
Illinois. Why this interest, do you think, in Buddhism?

DALAI LAMA: My impression or my sort of view is that, you see, time goes, time
passes, and especially, you see, those countries or those communities who have
the material comfort already achieved. But then, through their own experience,
they now begin to realize the limits of the material sort of facility, or I
think, the limits provided by material development to genuine happiness or
long-lasting happiness.

So, therefore, the people now begin to feel, oh, still there is something
missing. So, some kind of curiosity or sometimes another sort of desire. They
want to do something. So that, I think, leads to the interest towards Buddhism.
Buddhism here not as a religion, but rather, I think, some sort of techniques or
methods, you see, to address the mental crisis, mental problems...

KING: And what does yoga...

DALAI LAMA: ... and yoga also.

KING: What does yoga do for the person?

DALAI LAMA: Yoga -- of course, I think there are many variety of yoga system. As
far as I know, yoga mainly deals with physical, the channels -- or channel of --
what say -- the -- an energy and then also the different nerve centers. So it is
too some kind of control or some kind of change on the physical level, that
effect on the mind. So it is both. Another one, which is just simply through the
training of mind, just simply try to utilize the mental force and then change
the body's mental level.

Here, you know, I don't like external things. In emotional level or mental
level, there are contradictory sort of forces or thoughts there. So in order to
reduce another one, all this logically, the opposite side, if you increase, then
the other side will minimize. So that's the way.

Now, for example, anger. If we have some kind of realization and there is
something bad for the community, so one's own peace of mind, then, you see, try
too find what the opposite sort of emotion. That's love and kindness or
compassion. So once we realize that, try to increase these opposite power or
force. That's the system, the training of mind.

KING: We will take a break and come right...

DALAI LAMA: So the combination of yoga...

KING: Yoga and Buddhism, right?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, as you will see, it is really worthwhile, yoga practice as well
as the sort of positive mental training. If these two things are combined, then
there could be more, more effective.

KING: We'll be right back with more of His Holiness the Dalai Lama the Nobel
laureate of 1989, winning the Nobel Peace Prize. More with him, Deepak Chopra
later.

And tomorrow night, a program about reality shows. We'll deal with CBS's hit,
"The Survivors." And also, "Big Brother" is coming.

Darva Conger and Hugh Hefner will be here on Wednesday.

And Thursday night, Dana Carvey.

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We are back on LARRY KING LIVE with His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Over the weekend, you said that you are no different from any other human being,
and you told your audience, quote, "You should just consider me as your brother.
Don't consider me a living Buddha. Then I can't share my experiences with you."
But you are the living Buddha, are you not?

DALAI LAMA: No, no, no, no. I think the very term "the living Buddha" -- I think
this translation -- this term, I think, comes from the Chinese word, the hopeful
(ph). So this actually, how it developed, I don't know. But actually in Tibetan
the word "lama" and the Sanskrit word "guru." In both cases, the meaning of
"guru" or "lama," there's no sense of meaning of "living Buddha." The actual
meaning "lama" or "guru" is something wise -- sort of wise man or something
grateful. That kind of meaning.

So, therefore, I think the very sort of, I mean, term of "living Buddha" is a
mistake.

KING: But you are -- you are your holiness. You are a holy man?

DALAI LAMA:That's just, sort of, I think, a designation. So sometimes I've just got
(UNINTELLIGIBLE) telling my friends if they sort of believe I'm something --
very special person, that's rather, sort of a mental projection and also an
exaggeration. The reality -- whatever these other people say, some people say
he's a god king, some people say living Buddha, some people say counter
revolution, some people say almost like a devil -- but in reality, just a symbol
for Buddhist monk. So no more, no less.

KING: Just another good guy.

We will take a break and come back and we will ask His Holiness the Dalai Lama
about China. Deepak Chopra later, we'll talk about the genome, and we'll have
the Dalai and I listen in as well. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We're back with His Holiness the Dalai Lama.

Do you think in your lifetime you might see autonomy for Tibet?

DALAI LAMA: I think so. It's a Tibet issue -- in the case of the Tibet issue, I
feel if you look locally, then, you see, you will get some kind of frustrations
and time is running out. But, you see, the problem of Tibet is not due to a
major disaster or something like that. But -- usually I describe it like this:
some new guest, you see, came to our land with guns, but without proper
invitation. So that's the problem.

So therefore, the Tibet problem is very much connected with development in China
proper. So therefore, if you look from a wider perspective, from a global level
as well as the People's Republic of China's as a whole, things are changing.
Actually, the People's Republic of China is in the process of changing. More
information, more I think open, sort of openness, although it takes very, very,
very slowly. But it is sort of changing.

Therefore from wider -- looking from a wider perspective I feel there are many
positive signs.

KING: Do you think the granting of open trade status to China was a good thing
for you?

DALAI LAMA: Yes. In the long run, yes, definitely. So that's why I express that
China must bring into the mainstream of the world community and create
relations. These are very. very essential.

KING: You have also said...

DALAI LAMA: So China should not isolate.

KING: You said you would meet any place any time with China leadership with no
precondition. Do you expect that meeting to take place?

DALAI LAMA: Now, I can't say their sort of thinking, but of course in my part, as you just mentioned, my
middle approach, not seeking independence. To this I am fully committed, so
therefore, they -- as soon as some kind of positive indication comes from
China's government, then I'm ready to talk anywhere, any time, without any
precondition.

KING: All right. You are a man of non-violence. Do you fear that young Tibetans
coming along following you may be prone to be violent?

DALAI LAMA: Yes. You see, now, last, say 40 years, the -- some Tibetan
individuals, you see, they really sort of criticize about my approach, even if
it's a non-violent principle. But you see -- but I think the majority of
Tibetans inside their -- our society as far as non-violent principle is
concerned -- they support. But my middle approach is not seeking independence --
in that point, like Tibetan Youth Organization, they openly criticize.

So -- but so far also the non-violent principle is concerned, I'm -- not my sort
worry. Although there are some radical people -- some radical youth, even some
elder people inside Tibet as well as outside say do have some reservation about
my non-violent approach.

KING: We will take a break. When we come back, I'm going ask the Dalai Lama to
define happiness and how he sees it as an art and then Deepak Chopra will join
us as well.

This is LARRY KING LIVE. Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: We will take a call or two, by the way, for His Holiness the Dalai Lama.
Deepak Chopra will be joining us.

Before I ask you about happiness, do you have any thoughts about vice president
Gore and the Buddhist temple ceremony and fund raising? As you know, that's a
big controversy in the United States.

DALAI LAMA: Let's see -- well I don't know...

KING: You don't know the details at all?

DALAI LAMA: No. NO.

KING: You've not read or heard about Vice President Gore attending a Buddhist
ceremony at the Buddhist temple in Los Angeles?

DALAI LAMA: I think if that, I mean, happened, I don't think it's a -- I think
it's the -- I think main thing is, main factor is the motivation. If motivation
is sincere, then no problem. But if it's politically motivated, that's something
different.

KING: Well said politically, Your Holiness.

How do we -- how do you define happiness? What is happiness? You describe it in
the title of a book as an art form. You subtitled it "The Handbook For Living."
What is happiness to you?

DALAI LAMA: Happiness is something, I think, genuine sort of satisfaction or
calm, peaceful, and then here is my main sort of point, happiness -- of course,
there are different levels of happiness. Some satisfaction or pleasure mainly
depends on the sort of physical level. That I feel is common with the animals.

So since we, human beings -- you see, we have some universal thing, that is
human intelligence. So, certain kinds of happiness, or joyfulness, or pleasure,
or satisfaction develops on the basis of human intelligence. That I think is
something not only unique to human beings, but long lasting happiness. So, what
I see as happiness is mainly there for that.

KING: Let us take a call for His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Boston, Massachusetts,
go ahead.

CALLER: Yes, hello.

KING: Hello.

CALLER: I am Christian since birth and I am looking for peace through religion.
I have found self peace. But Christianity for me is somehow now unsatisfying and
I'm looking for more. Dalai Lama, how can I find my religion and find that peace
that I'm looking for?

KING: Did you understand the question?

DALAI LAMA: I feel -- yes, roughly. The -- I feel that all major world religious
traditions have more or less the same potential. Now, here, you follow your own
tradition, you own tradition of religion, that's Christianity, but at the same
time you can add some sort of methods or techniques which are available in the
Buddhist tradition. So that I think, you see, helpful or useful. Now, for
example, in Buddhist also, in certain fields I feel that the Buddhist can learn
from other traditions.

KING: We are still all learning.

You said on Sunday, yesterday -- quote -- this is what you said: "So many of our
problems are the results of overactive imaginations." What did you mean?

DALAI LAMA: That is to say the -- as I mentioned before, the humans are unique
in their intelligence, their thinking power, so sometimes, you see, because of
that power, you see, there's a lot of imagination. With that, a lot of
expectations, a lot -- then doubts, hope, and doubts, fears, that also sometimes
creates additional sort of mental sort of burden, or mental problems. So, the
intelligence, human intelligence, you see, can be both, can be very helpful or
troublesome, trouble maker. So, that's what I mean.

So, therefore, the human intelligence itself, you see, not really sure whether
that provides us really a happy life or not. So therefore, the -- it is very
helpful in practical level to be using human intelligence more sort of, I think,
holistic view properly, then we can overcome all those problems, or some kind of
disturbances due to human intelligence, we can overcome that and meantime we can
sustain more long-lasting, stable mental peace.

KING: You are optimistic about the human condition?

DALAI LAMA: Yes, I'm optimistic. You see, the reason, if we look back, the 20th
century, I think, the -- within 100 years the -- at the beginning of that
century, what kind of situation about world and especially about human sort of
-- their way of thinking, and then over the century I think human thinking I
feel becoming much more sort of, I think the -- anyway, I think holistic, more
wider.

Now, for example, the human -- consider human rights and also the environment,
and nonviolence, also the peace, and also I think the sort of closer relations,
signs of spirituality. I think, you see, these are the clear signs. Time goes
and also sometimes, you see, through developing situations we gain more deeper
experiences. As a result, human beings becoming more mature. So, this is my sort
of my optimism -- the basis of my optimism.

KING: We will take a break and come back, and we'll be joined by Dr. Deepak
Chopra, the best-selling author of "How to Know God," founder of the Chopra
Center in La Jolla, and we'll talk about the implications of genes and the
discovery today. The Dalai Lama will remain with us as well, and we'll get his
thoughts on what Deepak says, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Our guest for the full hour is His Holiness the Dalai Lama, he's with us
from downtown Los Angeles.

We are now joined here in our studios by Dr. Deepak Chopra, the best-selling
author of "How to Know God." There you see that book. And we're -- we've asked
Dr. Chopra here to discuss the implications of the announcement today, and I'm
sure His Holiness will pay rapt attention to this as well.

OK, we are going to be able to put together the human life in a book in a sense,
right?

DEEPAK CHOPRA, AUTHOR, "HOW TO KNOW GOD": Well, what we are now at is we know
the alphabet; the language, we know the words, we know the phrases, we even know
some of the sentences, but there are still paragraphs to write and there are
still stories to tell.

The alphabet does not tell you the full story, but it is a major development,
Larry, because in the next few years we will be able to take any little scraping
off your skin and give you a new eye, a new heart, a new kidney if you want.
There will be information from your own body creating that. There will be the
ability to make proteins, enzymes, they'll be the cure of many diseases. So it's
a major discovery.

But at the same time, we have to be really aware that technology by itself is
neutral, and we are -- have to have the responsibility how we use it. The same
technology will create nightmares if we want to. We'll have...

KING: An example?

CHOPRA: Well, biological warfare for one thing. We'll be able to take a few
little genes in a test tube, wipe out the human race or all other species. There
are no limits to what can happen with this technology. We can take information
of the DNA in the future, e-mail it to a distant planet in a distant galaxy, use
the raw materials of that galaxy to seed it with new life forms. See, you could
have Larry clones -- Larry King clones in distant planets.

At the same time, we have to understand that even though we know all this, we
are no way close to understanding the real questions of life, which are, do we
have a soul? Where do we come from? What is insight? What is imagination? What
is intention? What is intuition? What is inspiration? What is creativity? What
is knowingness? What is understanding? What is free will?

KING: And that we will not know from genome.

CHOPRA: We will not know from genome, because just like, you know, people
looking at you right now on their television sets, Larry King is coming through
them, streaming through a turbulent display of electrons. But Larry is not in
the electrons. When I read Shakespeare, Shakespeare is not in the ink, you know?
So, you know, if I take a bit of sugar, which is what DNA is, by the way, it's
sugar based, a bit of protein, put it in a glass of water, add a little sludge
to it, wait a few million years, it's not going to give me a poem. It's not
going to give me Beethoven's fifth. It's not going to give me the Mona Lisa.
It's not going to ask me, you know, what are the existential dilemmas of life?

KING: But a gene produces various things, including brains, right?

CHOPRA: It's the way consciousness expresses itself, just like Shakespeare is
being expressed through the ink, Beethoven is coming through the radio through a
stream of electrons, God is orchestrating, or you might say consciousness is
orchestrating, the infinite display of the universe very elegantly through four
alphabets. That is the mystery. That's the magic.

KING: Can't we get more Dalai Lamas?

CHOPRA: No, you can't, because Dalai Lama is an explorer of the inner dimension.
Science is an explorer of the outer dimension. You know what? When you see His
Holiness, the reason he's His Holiness is he doesn't have a social mask. He's
not putting on a mask. He tells it likes it is. He has the elegance of
simplicity.

Here are the Tibetans, who have been invaded by a foreign country, all he can
feel for them is compassion because he's not thinking of himself. He's not
thinking of his skin-encapsulated ego. You know, there's a Buddhist saying, we
are inter beings that inter arise in the inter (UNINTELLIGIBLE). And he's a
perfect example of that.

KING: All right, but we will know -- and we'll get the
Dalai Lama's thoughts on this in a couple of moments -- we will know, will we
not -- we'll have a baby. Let's take it simply. We will know by taking a little
skin from that baby whether that baby might get cancer of the colon, probably
will get cancer of the colon at age 75.

CHOPRA: And you'll be able to prevent it.

KING: And if we know that, we'll prevent it...

CHOPRA: Absolutely.

KING: ... by putting him on a vegetable diet now. Medications will come. We're
going to add to human life.

CHOPRA: We're going to add to the quality of human life...

KING: The plus way outweigh the minuses.

CHOPRA: ... if we are responsible. If we are responsible. Just like, you know,
nuclear technology we could have done wonderful things with it. We made bombs
out of it. With this technology, we can do wonderful things with it. It's time
that our inner experience of life, our inner evolution, our inner creativity,
reaches and catches up with our outer abilities.

KING: What do you think God thinks of this?

CHOPRA: I think God is doing it. I mean, the genome, the very impulse to study
the genome, is already coded in the genome. So, you know, we are not studying
the genome, the genome is manipulating us to study itself. It is God revealing
himself through the genetic code of the four alphabets. It's the greatest
mystery.

KING: Not news to God?

CHOPRA: Not at all news to God. You know, it's -- when -- you see, if you
understand how the DNA operates, it's not the bases themselves, it's the space
between the bases that orchestrates the sequences of the bases. So it's not like
when you have an alphabet it's the arrangement that creates the language. That
arrangement is in the space, which is non-material. This is the most amazing
technology that is bringing about the overthrow of the superstition of
materialism.

KING: All right, is this the greatest scientific discovery?

CHOPRA: It's the greatest scientific discovery ever. It ranks parallel with...

KING: Galileo?

CHOPRA: Galileo or quantum physics or the discovery of fire or the wheel or
anything else.

KING: We'll ask the Dalai Lama to join the conversation as well. As we go to a
break, here's what President Clinton, part of what he said this morning in the
White House.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WILLIAM J. CLINTON, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Today we are learning the
language in which God created life. We are gaining ever more awe for the
complexity, the beauty, the wonder of God's most divine and sacred gift. With
this profound new knowledge, humankind is on the verge of gaining an immense new
power to we are on the verge of gaining an immense new power to heal. Genome
science will have a real impact on all our lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: I'm with Dr. Deepak Chopra here in our studios and in downtown Los
Angeles, His Holiness the Dalai Lama. Do you have fears, Your Holiness, that we
will use this in a bad way?

DALAI LAMA: Oh, yes, I think any sort of scientific discovery or human
knowledge, you see, if you utilize wrong way or, I think, it can be utilized
with sort of a harmful motivation, then all these become negative, harmful. In
fact, I think every human activity, you see, if carried by negative emotion,
then even (UNINTELLIGIBLE) also become destructive. So every human action in
order to become more meaningful ultimately the depends on the about motivation:
sincere, honest and think long-term benefit.

KING: Now the motivation of these scientists today...

DALAI LAMA: That's my view.

KING: The motivation of these scientists, Dr. Chopra, are excellent, are they
not?

CHOPRA: Absolutely. Scientists are really some of the most spiritual people.
When they discover the laws of nature, they feel a sense of reverence, they feel
a sense of awe, wonder, mystery.

KING: Do you agree with him, it's the motivation of the people who have it?

CHOPRA: Absolutely. It's one of the eight noble truths, the eight noble paths to
enlightenment. One of them is right view, right intention, right motivation,
right perspective.

KING: Let me take a call. To Long Beach, California with the Dalai Lama and
Deepak Chopra -- hello.

CALLER: Yes, I'd like to ask the Dalai Lama what spiritual measures I can take
to protect myself in a situation where I'm experiencing a person who enters my
home invited in an out-of-the-body state. I can feel vibrations, energy and
heartbeat, all of which are very oppressive. And I've asked him many times to
leave, but he persists and keeps -- this keeps happening. It's been happening
about four months. And, in fact, he has identified himself as Deepak Chopra.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: OK, sir -- ma'am, maybe you can get help somewhere.

Toronto, Canada, hello.

CALLER: Yes, Your Holiness, how do you feel -- what do you feel about the death
penalty?

KING: Yes. What do you think about the death penalty?

DALAI LAMA: I think it's very, very sad. I feel it should be abolished. In fact,
I'm involved in the movement of abolishing the death penalty, because my sort of
reason or view is the -- as I mentioned before, since there is sort of a
(UNINTELLIGIBLE) distinction between action and the person. So even if you say a
person who acted something in a very criminal thing, which usually -- I mean
those countries which consider it to be punishable for death sentence. Even in
that case, that person still, you see, has the potential to change. Therefore,
it is extremely important to give chance. So the death penalty (UNINTELLIGIBLE)
no more. So there's no opportunity to return.

KING: No matter what the crime?

CHOPRA: Your Holiness -- Your Holiness, isn't it true that even that person is
doing the best he can from the state of consciousness or state of awareness that
he or she is in? Everybody is doing the best they can from the state of your
consciousness they're in?

KING: That means you forgive everything?

CHOPRA: Well, you forgive -- he said you forgive the person but you oppose the
action.

KING: We'll take a break and be back with our remaining moments. I didn't know
that you were going into people's houses without your body, Deepak.

CHOPRA: I am really sorry about that.

KING: You're a dangerous person. That's what we love about television. We'll be
back after these words.

Don't go away.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KING: Dr. Chopra, what do you think will happen with Tibet? You're a son of New
Delhi. It's in the region.

CHOPRA: Well, my hope is that the Chinese will see the monstrosity of what
they've done and that Tibet will be restored to its rightful political place and
its rightful political structure. But at the same time, as we move into the new
millennium nationalism by and large will not be so important. At some stage in
our lives, we will start to look at nationalism as a sophisticated form of
tribalism.

KING: Are you surprised at how well the Dalai Lama handles this, without anger?

CHOPRA: Well, he's -- you know, he's the bodhisattva of compassion, the
avalokitshvara. And he's the perfect example of that. Even though he says I'm a
simple Buddhist monk, that's -- that's his humility, which is even more
enduring. And if nothing else, we should all learn from him the art of
forgiveness, the art of happiness, the art of elegance, of simplicity.

KING: Your Holiness, do you get angry?

DALAI LAMA: Sometimes.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: At all? Yes?

I can't imagine you losing your temper. You -- what do you do to curb it?

DALAI LAMA: I think the sort of basic, my sort of -- understand the anger, hate
is so, so destructive. That kind of sort of realization or that kind of attitude
is really useful, you see, in order to reduce the intensity of anger.

CHOPRA: There's a distinction between anger and hostility, and anger can
sometimes be a healthy emotion. You release your emotions, you move on.
Hostility is when you seek vengeance, when you want to get even. And in fact,
it's now known as one of the predictors of premature death from cardiovascular
disease, as much as smoking or high cholesterol.

What you see in His Holiness is the total absence -- it's not in his nature to
be angry. So your question is actually irrelevant.

KING: Why do we love him so much? Why does the world love him so much?

CHOPRA: Because he reminds us of who we can be. He talks about potential, and he
is that potential that we all have. So he reminds us very much of who we would
all like to be.

KING: Are you in good health, Your Holiness? Will you be with us for a long time

DALAI LAMA: Yes. In fact I'm getting older, more healthier.

(LAUGHTER)

KING: How do you do that? DALAI LAMA: I have good sleep and good food.

(LAUGHTER)

That -- I think more seriously -- I think more seriously I think the mental sort
of peace, a peaceful mind, I think makes some differences in your own health.

KING: I thank you very much for giving us this hour, Your Holiness, and I wish
you nothing but the best.

DALAI LAMA: Thank you.

KING: Thank you.

DALAI LAMA: Thank you.

KING: Thank you.

DALAI LAMA: Thank you very much.

KING: And to you, Dr. Chopra...

CHOPRA: Thank you. Thank you, Your Holiness.

KING: ... he means what?

CHOPRA: To me he means the full unfolding of compassion, the realization that we
are so inseparably connected with each other. And to me he's the example of, you
know, what Christ said: Forgive your enemies as yourself. Treat your neighbor as
yourself and forgive your enemy.

KING: Your book is "How to Know God."

CHOPRA: Yes.

KING: There is certainly God in him.

CHOPRA: Oh absolutely. He denies it, but he is definitely the god king.

KING: Thank you, Deepak. Dr. Deepak Chopra and the Dalai Lama. We hope you
enjoyed tonight's program.

Speaking of that genome and everything, the CNN "NEWSSTAND" is going to devote a
lot of attention to it and so will LARRY KING LIVE in nights ahead as well.

Thanks very much for joining us. Stay tuned for CNN "NEWSSTAND." For guests and
yours truly, Larry King, good night.


the eleventh hour eleven shadows